Abbye & Jeff & Larry Ray - Intentionality and Friendship

Abbye, Jeff, & Larry Ray have been friends for over a decade and share a common love for hospitality and travel. These friends have found ways to incorporate one another into their lives whether they live in the same city or states apart. In fact - this friendship inspired one of Abbye's newest songs, Better With Time. Find Better With Time and all of Abbye's music at the links below.

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Mary: Hi, friends. Welcome to What’s A Podcast Between Friends?, a podcast that seeks to celebrate and learn from real life friendship. My name is Mary Liston, and I'm so excited to have you listening to the podcast. Today on the show, we have Abbye, Jeff, and Larry Ray. They have been friends for over a decade and have spent some of that time being friends in the same city and some of that time being friends states apart. I really enjoyed our conversation a lot, and this episode is actually super special because this friendship actually sparked the writing of a song that you'll get to hear more about in the episode and that you can access in our show notes. So we'll talk more about that at the end of the show and during the show. But right now, I just want you to know that I'm super excited for you to hear this episode. It's a really fun one, and I hope you enjoy it.

Jeff: Hey, I'm Jeff Petes and I'm married to Abbye West Pates.

Abbye: And I'm Abbye. And I'm married to Jeff.

Larry Ray: And I'm Larry Ray Reid. And I'm married to neither of them.

Mary: Awesome. Well, welcome, y'all. I'm so excited to have you all on the podcast today. To start out, I would love if you guys could share the story of your friendship and just kind of take us through how you all met and became friends to where you are now.

Larry Ray: Well, I like to think that our friendship began in January of 2008 when Abbye and Jeff moved to Memphis. But the real story is that our friendship began in the summer of 2005, when Abbye and I worked at the same summer camp together. And it wasn't purely random, but we had roles that kind of overlap with each other, worked closely together. I actually have a friend who makes fun of my diversity of friends and says that I must choose my friends based upon their work ethic, and I don't actually think that's true, but if it were, Abbye would fit that criteria because we worked our ***** off that summer and we did a great job. Yeah, that's how we became friends. And when I worked at the summer camp, not sure this is really something I should admit about myself, but I would just, in my head throughout the summer, would create a list of who I thought the top five people were. And at the end of the summer, I would let the people know who made my top five. I would let them know that they got on the list. There's also bottom five, but that's a whole nother podcast. And then there would also be usually some sort of small gift or token of acknowledgement that you're like in the top five. And it was a bumper sticker that said, someone in Texas loved me, and I had put it on her car for a long time.

Abbye: Oh, yeah.

Larry Ray: That's where it all started.

Mary: Wow, that's awesome. Okay, so you and Abbye met at this camp. Where did it go from there? Because I've been to camp before or worked at camps and had camp friendships and sometimes those like, stick and sometimes they do not. So tell me what made this friendship different.

Jeff: Hey, real quick, can I just ask a question?

Mary: Yeah.

Jeff: What about my work ethic? Larry?

Larry Ray: Well, we shared about Abbye's work ethic and now we're moving on.

Abbye: He didn't know your work ethic yet at this point in the story.

Jeff: True. All right.

Abbye: Okay. I immediately thought when you asked that it's because this year at camp we called it like the glory year. But we lived in really close proximity and I've been to other camps and I think this felt different in your all living in one building and pretty close quarters, and the community focus was very intentional and like lots of language around how you love each other, how you treat each other. And Larry Ray and I were doing all the stuff around meals and volunteers and all that. And I think that also is like a prime part of hospitality and community. So we just were spending a lot of time together and I think we're in an environment that fostered community, which I think speaks to what some of the stuff we'll talk about down the road.

Mary: I like that. Okay. So, Jeff, how did you end up becoming a part of this friendship? Were you at camp as well?

Jeff: I was not.

Mary: Okay.

Jeff: Yeah. So the summer camp, I like to say that I married into some of the benefits or maybe friends of the summer camp, they didn't work there. And then when we moved here, some of like maybe my first friends were all around the camp. And I did think to share this story, so I'll go ahead and share it now. But like, the first time, I'd probably hung out with Larry Ray before this particular kind of, like, catalyst moment in our friendship, but we were going to go to lunch. It was like maybe one of the first times that Larry and I were going to do something apart from Abbye. And so I met him for lunch. We went with some other folks, but it was people that he worked with. But I felt like it was like our first date. I was like, all right, this is me and Larry going to do something. Like, I've got to have my stuff together. And so I think it was like early on when we moved here and we moved for Abbye's job, so I didn't yet have my own job, so I was very free during the day, but I showed up and I had on some kind of attire. I thought I looked good, but the first comment that Larry said was, well, did you just get done working out? So I guess I was in gym club. Oh, no, and I don't know if he remembers that or what he meant by it, but I was like, oh, no, I've already messed up. But we went to lunch and everything seemed to go pretty good and the rest is history. So we're still friends. Even though my work ethic is in question, I'm still hanging in there.

Mary: There you go. You know what? At the end of the day, that's all that matters.

Larry Ray: True. And I think just to kind of bridge the story here together. So Abbye and Jeff moved to Memphis in January of eight. I had lived a little over a year and we were among other people who had also kind of chosen to move to Memphis because of connection to working at this camp and feeling drawn to Memphis. By the time that they got here, it was definitely understood that we were going to be friends. And it's very fun to move to a city and sort of have built in friendships even if you haven't sort of explored it like that yet. That's the beginning of when I would really count or friendship is starting. This first lunch date happened that I can't even really say I remember.

Mary: So obviously when you became friends, you were adults and adult friendship can be really difficult, especially when it comes to navigating finding time for friendship because everyone's lives are busy and jobs are busy. How did you make time and space for your friendship and how do you make time and space for your friendship?

Abbye: Now I hope this doesn't sound fake, but I mean, I think it really is true because we talked about it before that our friendship, all three of us together has never felt like one of the friendships we had to make time for in a way that was like work. We always wanted to make time and space for each other. But also, like, Jeff and I have talked about this before and we lived in community with other people, which is a whole other topic, but people have always been important in friendships to be included in our marriage. I think people imagine that once you get married and you have this one best friend for life and you don't need anybody else, you do everything together and kind of this myth of loneliness, of not being lonely in marriage. And so I think from the beginning that's been something that Jeff and I wanted to have people included in our marriage. And so we have really you guys can chime in, but it has not felt like this great effort to make time and space for each other. But that being said, obviously we'll talk about some other ways we are intentional. They just feel easy to do, though.

Mary: I like that.

Larry Ray: Abbye and Jeff and I have never lived together. We've never worked together, we've never gone to church together. We've never lived in the same neighborhood. So there was never this like, oh, we had this thing that happened that we had to make up for the time lost or something like that. So, yeah, definitely agree with that sentiment. Like, oh, it's never been something that we have tried to make time for. I also think if you were to grasp our friendship, because surely you could do that, it would sort of be on this ever incline that it's just sort of gradually strengthened over time. I'm sure there have been times where maybe it's kind of plateaued off and certainly points that were catalysts becoming stronger, but there hasn't ever been a point where it would have fallen off or we've become less of friends or grown apart or anything like that.

Mary: I think that it's interesting to note, like you said, that you all have never been in the same spaces when it comes to living and working and church and things like that, because I think that a lot of times that can feel like, really convenient. Not that it's like a friendship of convenience, but like, oh, I'm going to see this person every day when I make breakfast, or every day when I'm eating lunch at work, or every day or every week at church. But you've always been in the business of making time and space for one another because you've not had that built into your life. So I think that's really neat. You all lived in Memphis together for how many years before you didn't?

Abbye: That's a great question. We didn't do the math. Larry, you moved in summer 2019. So yeah, over ten years.

Mary: Wow, okay, so ten years of being in the same space, same city, and then Larry Ray, you move.

Larry Ray: I'm the one who messed it up.

Mary: How has making time and space has it looked different since the move? Or has it still kind of been similar since those common spaces within even the city weren't shared?

Larry Ray: Yes. The short answer is yes. I was just telling someone the other day there could easily be a week where we would have spent four evenings together, and to go from that to you can't spend any evenings together is drastically different. I do think we have weirdly found a way to still feel like we're very much a part of each other's lives and we still share life together in sort of a weird way that just isn't maybe as much in the same room. But yeah. A lot of that is thanks to our great friends at Marco Polo. And we have an occasional FaceTime call or phone call. And we certainly make efforts to meet up from time to time. But really. Marco Polo has been sort of a lifeblood piece of just being able to check in and share and be a part of what's happening in each other's lives at your convenience.

Mary: I just want to really quickly jump in and say I've had a couple of people mention Marco Polo, and I know what marco polo is. But would one of you want to explain for people who don't know what Marco polo is and how it can be used to kind of bridge long distance friendship gaps?

Abbye: Yeah, I don't know what the marketing term is that they use, but it's a video messaging app, and the awesome thing about it is that you don't have to be present like a FaceTime call you're leaving these video messages. And thanks to the generosity of Larry, we have a premium account, and it's fancy. It really is, like which I think is actually an interesting thing to note. It's an investment in how we communicate, because it really does it sounds silly, but it actually has a lot of features that make communicating with each other easier and better. So that's what Marco polo is. And I wanted to say about it that we say it's not difficult to make time and space, but it's still intentional because we choose to check in about our mundane. Like, we literally do check in just about, like, how was your work day? How was whatever. And we do that almost every day, which I think it's become routine, but it still is intentional.

Mary: Yeah, for sure. Also, if the good people at Marco polo are listening, throw your girls sponsorship. I mean, we've been promoting it all over these episodes, but yeah, I think it's really neat, and I love that it can be used to talk about really big things, early, small things. It's really great.

Larry Ray: I'm a fan also in polo, just like anything else, probably you have groups. So we have a group that is the three of us, but then I also pull out with jeff, and then I also pull out with Abbye. Jeff and I have another polo group with another friend of ours. It sort of allows all the avenues to happen.

Mary: Yeah, for sure. So we've had, I guess, only one other group of three friends come on the show at this point. But I really love groups of three, because I think that there's something really special about friendship between three people. Can you talk a little bit about how you all balance the friendship between the three of you and what that looks like, just in terms of how you communicate and how you are able to navigate that space?

Jeff: I think it's just one of those things that just works between the three of us. In my opinion. We don't really work at it. I think our friendship in this respect is very easy, and it just ebbs and flows. Something that comes to mind. As Larry mentioned, we do occasionally meet up, which means we go on trips together. Weekend or long weekend kind of trip. We like to go to the mountains, and for different reasons. Maybe for all three of us, Abbye is more outdoorsy, or maybe I should say she's the most outdoorsy of the three of us. Larry is the most indoorsy of the three of us, and then I'm kind of in between. But we all like the mountains, so Abbye likes hiking, larry and I like the view. One of Larry's almost requirements to find a place to stay is a hot tub. So we always seek that out. And then one of my requirements is like, is there a local craft brewery? I just like to try different beers. And we all really enjoy trying local restaurants, so if it has that on our trips, fun, adventurous food and maybe those other things, that's kind of where we like to go. And as far as balancing friendship, get back to your question. I think one way we do it is, like I said, it's fairly easy. And I remember one trip we went on and Abbye and I wanted to go into the town that was close by. Larry just said, like, well, I kind of don't want to go. And then so we just were like, okay, well, I'm sure you would probably enjoy more hot tub time. And he agreed, and so we were probably gone three or 4 hours, and maybe Larry was in the hot tub for three or 4 hours, but we have just that kind of understanding. Like, yeah, we're going on a trip, but it doesn't mean you have to spend every single minute together. So I think that's how we kind of balance it.

Larry Ray: I think that we also allow space. Well, this is really Abbye and Jeffrey then, but they allow space for each of the I said avenue before. But I really do think that you have one of your other podcast guests refer to it as an equilateral triangle. And I was like, yes, that's us. And there's maybe even like an equilateral triangle with a line down the middle, too, because I'm just as much friends with Abbye as I am friends with Jeff, as I am friends with them together. And there are different things that each of those friendships has played out. And I think to the point of, like, what Abbye and Jeff do to make that happen is like, there are things that I talked to Jeff about that Jeff and I might be having a conversation Abbye doesn't like, oh, I should jump into that. Or even though I'm privy to that information, it's like, oh, Jeff and I have conversations. Abbye and I have conversations. They allow that space to exist, which I think is unique and adds to the kind of richness of the friendship because there's really every combination.

Mary: I feel like I always start out with these really nice, warm, fuzzy questions and right in the middle, tell me about conflict, but we're going to do that again. Can you guys talk a little bit about the role that conflict plays in your friendship and how that plays out, especially with the dynamic of the three of you?

Jeff: I'm just going to say I've never had a conflict with either one of.

Larry Ray: Them or anyone, really, in life.

Jeff: Yeah, I mean, in our friendship, we have conflict all the time. We're married, but not all the time.

Abbye: Understood.

Jeff: We do, but I'll let you guys take this one.

Abbye: My grumpiness is the number one cause for our conflict. I'll go ahead and put that out there when we go on trips. Basically, Lia Ray and Jeff know when Abbye's sleepy and hungry grumpiness follows. And we don't want to cause conflict. That's actually kind of true. Like, we know each other so well that we know when to back off. Or there was a time last September when we were visiting Larry Ray in Texas and Larry called me on something which also kind of hurt my feelings and I felt misunderstood. We also talked about it really quickly and kind of move past it really quickly. Like, we didn't pretend like it didn't happen. We both we both were pretty, like, direct about that thing and then moved on from it. That does not happen very often. But I do think the fact that it happened and we were able to move on from it was good. That's just kind of one practical example.

Larry Ray: That happened, I think, too, in our season now, it's like, oh, well, we get limited time together. Even though we might have those moments, you can easily be motivated to be like, okay, let's get over that, because there's only so much time to share. We're all very different, I think. There may be a ton of conflict that exists, but we view things very differently. We are all three very different people and we don't agree on things, but I think we enjoy kind of hearing perspectives and learning from each other. And that's not something that I'm probably, like, painting a picture like, we're crazy. We are crazy. Different. Perfect. We're perfect just being like, oh, we do enjoy hearing different perspectives that exist between the three of us. And we're not people who are trying to always win each other over to a perspective or a side can sit with learning the other views.

Abbye: Yeah, and I was kidding about being perfect. It's worth noting that both Larry and I are very opinionated and Jeff has become more and more willing to speak up about the things. I'm doing my best not to bring up the personality typing tool that people talk about because Larry Ray is not into that. However, two of us are a little more direct and opinionated, and so there could be place for more conflict, I think. But I think what's great about that is we're not passive aggressive about it. We know each other's preferences pretty strongly and we have for a long time. Does that feel true to you guys?

Unknown Speaker: Definitely.

Jeff: I would say so. And I think over the time we've learned that and even appreciate it and even sometimes put down our desires to do so. Like case in point. One time we were traveling with two other friends of ours, but we went to Chattanooga and like I've already mentioned, I really loved trying craft breweries. I've been to this one before, but it's one of my favorites. So I was like, I really want to go. And Larry could care less about beer, but he went and he was like, well, just give me something that you think I might like, whatever. But he was willing to entertain it and go because he knew that I really enjoyed that. And so, I mean, have you done that many times in our friendship and our personal relationship?

Abbye: I don't know if this question is.

Mary: Going to make sense, but I'm going to try it. You talked about how you all are very different people with different personalities and you have different perspectives on things, but you enjoy hearing each other's opinions and kind of having that and being able to sit in the tension of that space. Can you maybe like. Wager a guess or tell me a little bit about what do you think you guys have done or what makes your friendship a safe space to be able to share those things and know that it's not we're trying to fight each other right now or I'm trying to pull you over to my side on this. But I guess how are you able to cultivate that safety to know that I can say what I think and at the end of the day we're still going to be friends even though I know that maybe the person sitting across from me does not agree with what I'm saying completely. Does that make sense as a question?

Jeff: It does, and I'm not necessarily going to answer. I just wanted to acknowledge that. That is a great question.

Mary: Thank you. I feel like I'm someone that's very conflicted versus when you're like, we like to talk about things that we disagree about. My heart starts racing. That sounds horrible to me. Like, that sounds terrifying. And so I just would love to know how you've cultivated a space where that's safe.

Abbye: Well, I also think it's a great question and I do want to be transparent enough to say that some of the hot topics that really get people into a lot of conflict in their relationships, like theology would be one or politics, those are not things that drive our conversations and friendships. I think you all could both agree or not in like the topic driven way. Obviously things like theology and politics are all part of all of our life and relational conversations, but we're not saying, what do you think about X bill is going to pass in Congress? You know what I mean? Sure. I'm not saying I don't enjoy those conversations. Some of us enjoy some of those conversations more than others in the friendship. But we also have had, I think, our journeys of asking different questions and having shifting beliefs on different things have often we've actually often been on a similar journey in that way, but not in a way where we felt like the other person had to be where we were at the time. So I guess it is kind of a gift in that way. We still have plenty of time in life to cross the bridge of those big topics. Ours are usually on things like kind of the areas. So Jeff and I are musicians. I own my own music business. Larry is an education, has very, very passionate thoughts and opinions about educational topics. I have very strong opinions about, you know, music and charging for music and all this stuff. So those are where some of our conversations get the most interesting but never tear each other down. I don't know. This is really making me think.

Larry Ray: So the thing that comes to mind is, and this is something like Abbye and Jeff probably wouldn't even say Abbye wouldn't say she's super into this. But the thing that comes to mind is like, recycling and composting because Abbye is just really disappointed in me as a human, in my enthusiasm and participation in recycling and composting. So I think where it's like a safe space is like, Abbye really believes in that and she's really going to make fun of me for it. But also, at the end of the day isn't going to share with me the 19 reasons that you should compost all of your food waste. So, yeah, that's the example that comes to mind. It's just like, yeah, you get to be you. And I'll even dump something in the compost bin when I'm at your house if you tell me what it is I need to dump and where to put it. I don't have to smell it too long, but I'm not going to go home and be like, yeah, that wasn't that bad. I should get a compost then.

Mary: So it sounds like what I hear you saying is that it's coming from it's not about like a preachiness, would you say? That's part of it. It's never like you all are preaching at one another about certain things. It's more like you're just sharing your thoughts and opinions and at the end of the day, you recognize that we're all different people, things like that. But it's not like, let me give you a lecture about, in this instance, composting or something else.

Abbye: I think that's true. If anybody leans toward preaching this, it's me. And I've had to grow in life, for sure. I used to think that it was my job to change and fix everybody for all the things I was passionate about, and then I just realized that didn't work. But, yeah, I think that's pretty true for us. I've never had to think this critically about it. So, yeah, it's giving me something to think about.

Mary: Jeff, were you going to say something and I cut you off.

Jeff: I had one thought about kind of the topic and I feel like having this friendships span been over a decade, we've also, in some ways grown together and continually maybe learning who each other are. Kind of like the example about composting. And Abbye said she may have been the most preaching of the three of us, but at some point maybe she had to learn. Like, oh, I can share my opinion with Larry, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to change his mind. I think kind of how it works is, like, you just learn to shift and adjust your expectations and you can still share your opinion. We can share the opinion, but it doesn't necessarily mean that that person is going to change. And it doesn't mean that because we have a differing opinion that they're going to think less of us.

Mary: Yeah, I think that's probably where the safety lies. Like, if you know that someone cares about you and loves you unconditionally, like, you know that at the end of the day, whatever you're talking about isn't going to change how they feel about you or isn't going to change the state of your friendship. Jeff kind of, like, started to lead us into this next question. I think that friendship teaches us a lot. So what are some things that you've learned from this friendship?

Jeff: I'll take a stab at this one. And I don't know if this is like, directly related to your question, but this is what I thought of when I read that for Larry first. I think of Larry as someone that really helps me put things into perspective, a general sense and outside of my own head. Several years ago, Abbye and I went on a trip out of the country with a bunch of folks and I was talking to this one guy who was on the trip and he was like, yeah, so and so I consider him on my advisory board. And I was like, what? You have an advisory board? And as he talked more, it was just like a list of people that he really values and goes to for advice or just like a sounding board. And so I was like as I talked to him more about it, I was like, oh, that makes total sense. Big businesses and nonprofits have boards, but it's the same kind of thing. It's just a group of people that you trust to help advise you. And so after that trip, and then as Larry and my friendship has grown, I was like, oh, Larry Ray needs to be the director of my board so he's top dog and you can't rotate off it's just for life. So, yes, back to that. He's just kind of like, help put things into perspective. And I remember one time I kind of had this idea for a business adventure and I thought someone was really excited about it. And I remember I called. Him, like, at my place of employment on my lunch break, like in the back room, because I thought it was really private. And I was like, I only want Larry to know about this. And I was like, hey, this guy is super excited about this thing that I'm doing. And Larry said, I'm not sure that he's like, as excited as you are. And it was kind of a blow. But like I said, it was a perspective. It really helped me also just realize the state of things. And that probably solidified Larry being the board of my directors. He's not going to sugarcoat it. He's going to encourage you when he should and he's going to speak truth when he needs to. And then Abbye has taught me many things over the years, but yeah, at least for me, even in the same way, like, she's been an encourager, but just maybe even in a different way.

Abbye: I don't know, when I think of what I've learned from our friendship all collectively together, I think I learned it most when Larry did move. Sorry to bring it up, Larry, but you knew how to confess them. So Mary and I talked about the song I wrote that Larry's moving was kind of a catalyst for it, but it's called Better With Time. And like. One of the very specific thoughts I have when I started writing it was like. We just don't get to call each other up on Friday and go have dinner at 08:00 P.m. Because all of us eat late and have no plans or can go eat leftovers that Larry had from a big dinner party he had and just watched three episodes of The Office and all fall asleep on couches. None of that is eventful at all. It's all very ordinary and very just the stuff you do on a Friday night. Although, actually, we're probably very boring. People are doing much more interesting things on Friday nights and eating leftovers.

Mary: Not me.

Abbye: I mean, Jeff and I would just like, look so forth to Larry Ray's leftovers because he would make these wonderful salmon hash salmon and sweet potato hash. And so I appreciate that because I won't say it's the only friendship where that's a quality that I value, but I think that is something that we all value and that we've experienced a lot. And therefore, when you're not in the same space, you have to find other ways to try to keep the ordinary, which is where we come back to something like Marco Polo. How can we still celebrate or not even celebrate? How can we just experience a little bit of the ordinary? And that's like telling each other about our day.

Mary: I love that. And actually, it's so funny that you say all of this, Abbey, because I wanted to talk to you about in your song, how you bring up these moments that are just very ordinary, like their everyday moment. But those are the things. So I recently, within the past year, had like, a lot of friends move away, and it was really hard. And when I think of those friendships, even though we did a ton of really fun things together, like travel or throw parties or celebrate new jobs and all these things, those aren't the things that I think of when I think of those friendships. Right? Those things are special and great, and I loved doing those things with them. But the things I think about are, like, the jokes we would tell each other or binge watching a show together or driving around or running errands. Like, it's the little things. And your song captures that so well. I think one of the parts talks about, like, heard a joke and it's not the same as hearing it with you. That really hit me where I live right now because I had a lot of friends move away, and I was like I was thinking about how those are the moments that I missed. So I'm really glad that you brought that up because I was going to bring it up if you didn't, because I was literally thinking about that before we got on this call.

Abbye: Yeah, my friend Matthew wrote that line. I think it's cool that you thought about it. I heard a joke. You would like, yes, and then no jokes half as funny without you here to tell.

Unknown Speaker: Yes.

Abbye: Even though he wrote that line. Because we both have experienced a lot of friendship loss. I just thought sometimes even the three of us, we have something that literally only the three of us would think is funny. I'm like, no one else is going to appreciate this. And that's both sad when you don't have it in real time, but it's also the joy of what makes your friendship so unique.

Larry Ray: Okay, I'm going to take, like what I've learned is a completely different direction for responses have been so different because I think mine is really about traditions. So it's about maybe more sort of those, like, kind of planned things, some of which are maybe more grand than others. But I can point to several different examples of how there were times. And really, maybe the first one I can think of is, like, just between Jeff and I, we had a mutual friend who was really probably even a catalyst to us becoming as good a friend as we are today. And we would do trips together, the three of us, and over time, those just kind of became less practical. I think as the three of us, meaning me and Jeff and this mutual friend, the three of us kind of became less connected. And I think there was a time when maybe we were kind of frustrated, like, Callie, why isn't this trip happening? And then it just sort of dawned on us, like, why don't we just go on a trip? Why are we dependent upon that other person to make that happen with the three of us too, I think, in a couple of avenues, but one that comes to mind is Abbye and Jeff and I. We love hospitality. We love sharing meals together and with other people. We love what I call a lingering dinner, just kind of the dinner that just fades into the conclusion of the evening. And we both had sort of regular rhythms of this existing in our lives. Abbye and Jeff, for a lot of their time in Memphis have had housemates and lived in community and so their rhythm has usually been with housemates sharing a meal together every Monday evening or whatever. Mine is more existed in just kind of a couple of different friend groups that really prioritize kind of like setting aside that time that we would gather every week for dinner. And both of these scenarios were very like sacred spaces. Like you didn't miss this dinner time together. And at a point where neither of us had those things happening in our life, we were invited to become part of the supper club. And summer club was monthly, so it wasn't maybe as strong of a commitment, but summer club, it was very different from maybe those other dinner gatherings. But we loved it and kind of loved the idea of it and it probably went on for maybe a year and a half or two years. But as it kind of started to fade, you started to see people less interested in it. I think we became kind of frustrated with it. It was just like, golly, why are these people sort of like buying in? And of course, it eventually died and then I don't know who brought it up, but one of us is just finding like, okay, but why aren't we just having our own weekly dinner? It sounds so obvious, but at the time I think of it as a real or as I've reflected, I think of it as a real catalyst in our friendship. It's like, oh, yeah, we don't need the world to provide us an opportunity. Like, we create the opportunity. We create the tradition. That started a weekly dinner tradition that we did for a while and only stopped because I moved and we would alternate. You hosted and we also every other time you hosted, you have the opportunity to invite someone else to the dinner. So that was a very special tradition while it lasted. One day we'll resume it, even if it's in retirement when we all live in our old people commune together. Just kind of that idea of like, oh, you don't have to wait on the world to provide you the opportunity. You can create your own traditions. And the things that I was also just kind of the acknowledgement like, oh, we are enough. We don't need more people or somebody else in order to kind of be the group that we want to gather. So I think that was like part of what I've learned that I've really loved experiencing.

Abbye: And that meant so much to me when all those different kinds of dinners you mentioned, because hearing you say Larry Ray reminds me that we really love to gather around dinner because we have all had a lot of dinner and supper things in our life going on at different points. But I think it meant so much to me when it finally came together in the end where we were hosting the Monday night every other week. We could invite somebody else if you were hosting, you could invite anyone you wanted to that night every other time. And because we had had that staple Monday night dinner within our home, us doing that together, it really hearing you say it feels like we've really reached something because now we're treating every Monday just like any family that sits down to dinner every Monday like husband and wife and their kids. But we're doing the three of that together, treating it just as sacred and important that we're going to gather on mondays and we're going to add that hospitality element which has always meant so much to really all of us. We've all really there. You may not use that word as much, but I think that I consider you a super hospitable person. It just reminds me that I'm really glad that's been a part of our story because I guess that's one of the best things we've ever practiced together.

Mary: Friendship is really marked a lot by the idea of hospitality and being hospitable towards one another. And I think that's really beautiful. I feel like maybe we've covered this question just in the scope of our conversation, but I'm going to ask it and then if we feel like we've already answered it, we can move on. But how has your friendship changed over time? Would you say?

Abbye: Let me consult our notes. Okay, perfect. I'm not sure if you know this mirror, but we have a google doc that we're all reviewing where we take notes.

Mary: Oh, my gosh.

Abbye: I'll credit to Larry Ray who put this together.

Jeff: Yeah. Maybe just a filler while Abbye is consulting our notes. And maybe this is something that's like comment or other people have said, but I would say we've all just become more comfortable. Yeah. I mean, back to the first date that Larry and I went on, I was nervous. I felt like I had to get close to this top five. I didn't want to be in the bottom five. So I really felt like I had to impress Larry, but I also wanted to be myself and kind of holding those two aspects together. And now that's not a concern right now. I know I can say something like, hey, Larry, actually we really like dogs and we're going to get a dog and Larry is still going to be our friend even though Larry's not a pet person, so we've just become more comfortable. And I think we've each given the other space to do that, to be ourselves.

Larry Ray: I'm so glad that all the things I don't like in life are getting exposed on this.

Abbye: It's who you are. We accept you and you accept us.

Jeff: Totally true. We've talked about your love for food and community and hospitality. Those things do outweigh the things that you're not a fan of.

Abbye: One thing we have discovered in really talking about our friendship, which has been such a gift, to really talk about our friendship leading up to recording, this has been that very much. When Jeff and I first moved here in January 2008, there were a lot more game nights, which I'm sure Jeff is so excited don't happen very much anymore because he is not a game person.

Jeff: We're talking about board games and card games, not video games. But I'm not a fan of any of those. Really?

Abbye: Yeah.

Jeff: There's exposure of the things that I don't like, Larry.

Larry Ray: I know I'm digging it, but there.

Abbye: Was a lot of that. It's hard to explain, but so many people stayed here after this summer that we worked, and there were consequences, summers where people stayed. So it's like you had to experiment when you first move of who you're going to really be friends with and, like, who's going to stick. And so you just went. I feel like we went to a lot of game nights. There was an office watch party, which was so awesome, and over the years, there were, like, less group hangout, or there was a much smaller group of people. And we're still here with Larry Ray hanging out in this group and, like, more dinners together with just him or this kind of other couple that we all hang out with, until all of a sudden you look how we've evolved into our own tradition of our own dinner, where we invite people in. And so it really went from this larger group to kind of condense down to not just us, but to our solidified friendship, where we were inviting people into our lives. And that may not be a great way to say it, but, I mean, when Larry Ray left, we saw each other not exaggerating like three to four times a week if one of us wasn't out of town, because even if that was quick, we all worked at the Crosstown Concourse for a while. They're just like, popping in for dinner or stopping by in the afternoon. I used to stay at Larry's house every time Jeff went out of town because I didn't like staying alone and we go on vacations together. So quite the evolution.

Larry Ray: I wish I could remember when it started or the first time I might have done it, but there are a lot of ways in which I'm probably living in the wrong era of time, and in today's world. I feel like people aren't as keen on dropping in unannounced, but I love it. I'm on the way home from the grocery store or on the way home from work or whatever. And in a couple of scenarios, like, their house would have been I mean, not directly on that path, but it's like, easy enough, just like, pav over, see if their cars were there. So I can't really remember when that would have started, but I can definitely remember a time that I did it. And they actually had other friends over for dinner that evening. And I just walked in the door and I just pulled up a chair at the table. Not like I was going to eat, but I feel like their other friends were I mean, not like they were like dumb todd or something, but just were kind of like and Abbye just turns to them and goes like, this is normal. And that sort of just like, set the tone of like, oh, he's going to be here the rest of the night, so you might as well become friends too.

Mary: Okay, so the last two questions that I ask every episode are in the vein of celebrating friendship because I think that friendship is super important. It needs to be celebrated. So the first question is, is there a moment or a conversation that comes to mind when you all think of your friendship?

Jeff: You know, I thought about this question because you were kind enough to give the questions beforehand. I was like, oh, there's so many. But it just came to me, one that I want to, I don't know, kind of not encompass, because I think our friendship is bigger than one moment, of course. But in this particular moment, I'm thinking of a trip that we took together. We went to Gatlinburg, and growing up, I went to Gatlinburg with my grandparents. And then at some point I became an adult. And I was like, oh, Gatlinburg is so touristy. It's not something cool to do. And somehow it came on things to do, places to go. And I was like, okay, sure, we'll go. And we also really like airbnb and so more fun than staying in a hotel, in our opinion. We also really like to kind of like, give our opinions about how people could do things differently in their airbnb. And Larry has been a super host in his lifetime, so that's always fun. But we went to Gatlinburg, stayed in the airbnb, and Abbye found an airbnb experience where we went downtown and went on a walking tour and tried some different distilleries, basically. And there was one moment where I guess we were done with the experience and we went to this little store to get some food. It was basically like fair food, like funnel cakes and corn dogs. But that whole night just kind of encapsulated our friendship to me. It was like things that we either enjoy or don't mind, but I feel like in that moment we were all ourselves and we were having fun and enjoying life.

Larry Ray: Yeah. Jeff was all talking to the other people on the tour and then they're like, yeah, funnel cake place. I'm more like just step on that. What happened? I don't need to make any new friends at this event.

Abbye: That was also the night when I learned why tipsy is the word that it is because you feel like you're going to tip over.

Mary: Is that really what it is?

Abbye: I don't know, but it felt right. We went on a moonshine tour. You know, what do you expect?

Mary: Listen, I was Justin gatlinburg and also went on a moonshine tasting experience.

Abbye: So I understand I had to walk between Jeff and Larry Ray and I said, I think this is what tipsy means because you feel like you're going to tip over. We learn things.

Mary: Okay.

Abbye: This is crazy because my memory is from the same trip. Jeff on that same trip we were driving up the mountain to our airbnb or maybe it was our second trip to gala.

Mary: I don't know.

Abbye: We've been on a lot of trips and it was the thickest fog I've ever experienced. And I'm driving, winding up this road as you do in the mountains, and there was no option but for jeff is hanging out one window. Larry ray is hanging out the other window, literally telling me where to drive because I could see nothing. And Larry ray had an idea that his only other idea was to get out and literally walk in front of the car and tell me where I could go. And I think about that because I think we trust each other with our lives. Driving up this mountain. Yeah. It's a great experience. And I'm actually a struggle being very controlling and thinking my way is always right. I had no choice but to rely on jeff and Larry to get us up the mountain. It was a great moment to reflect on.

Mary: That was probably terrifying. So good on you all for figuring that out because that would be really scary.

Jeff: That moment was also teamwork. I'm not sure that we could have made it and I'm really not exaggerating, but I don't think we could have made it to our cabin if the three of us weren't involved. Like one person had to drive and the driver I feel like the driver just could not see the side of the mountain and the ledge of the road, the driver side of the car with their head out and then someone else had to look at the mountainside. So teamwork makes a dream work for real.

Larry Ray: Yes. It's funny that both of those are gatlinburg memories. Like place jeff was like making fun of us going. Initially, I wasn't going to share necessarily a specific moment, but when I missed this whole thing up and I moved to Texas, I'm telling people stories about Abbye and Jeff and maybe more than they ever wanted to hear. But that's like who I would talk about. And especially as I became I'll use the term friend lightly with people in Texas, and I would want to convey just like what a significant friendship I had with Abbye and Jeff. I would only do this occasionally, but I started to tell people like, oh, think of Abbye and Jeff collectively as my spouse. They are together, like who I am effectively married to. And of course, people would make fun of that or probably not understand, which I love. A little shock value there. It's good for people to understand. And I think, too, because things like friends is family or like, oh, they're like my brother and sister. I feel like sometimes phrases like that are very overused. I have a boss, he calls everybody a friend. He's met you one time. And so I'm like, oh, when I say my friends, like, I want you to understand what I mean, maybe don't have terms for that. So that's what I came up with. It's like, oh, that's what I like for people that I want to know. That's what I started sharing because it made a difference to me. People understood.

Mary: I like that a lot. Yeah. So my last question for you all is what do you admire most about one another? And some people are taking issue with me saying the most, what is something that you really admire about the other people in your friendship?

Abbye: Mine feel very easy. I admire and I will start with Jeff because I think it's good to be friends with your spouse, too. Jeff is an includer, and as much as I talk about hospitality, there are a lot of things that are actually very difficult for me about welcoming all types of people. I get anxious. I just want to be able to control things and be very perfect. And jeff is just a wide open enclosure. If it's just like talking to strangers in gatlinburg, he would get to know everybody. When we have a fire at our house, which we've had a lot of fires, a lot of intentional fires and a fire pit.

Mary: Good clarification. Good clarification.

Abbye: Yes. It's always wanting to include everyone, and I really admire that about him because it helps me to be more open and it helps me to include people more. I think it probably helps me and larry ray sometimes to include people more. And definitely thing I admire about eight thing I admire about him is his commitment to use his time and money resources to see friends. He traveled all over the country now because friends have moved all over to see friends. They're all different. He's known all of them, different lengths of time. Some of them he only sees once a year. And I've shared this with many people. Larry ray, that's a value because it's not just money, resources. When you go to see friends, it's time. You are always setting aside time to go. And I know it's fun for you, too. You get to go on a trip and you get to go somewhere, but you're choosing to be the one that goes and does that, and you make it a point to make those plans and block it off on the calendar. And that's very inspiring to me because you do value not just our friendship, but all your friendships.

Jeff: I'll go next. I would say what I admire, one of the things I admire about Larry is Larry just seems to know probably 99.6% of the time exactly how he feels about something as soon as you ask him. So a little backstory for this is that early in our friendship, I would say that Larry was a wild card. And Larry didn't really like that term because to me, I couldn't figure out his answer, but he always knew and hey, we're thinking about having a potluck. Hate him. I hate potlucks. Wait, what? But you really like food and you like, people don't get it. So not to get too far down that rabbit trail, but it's like there is the person who shows up to the potluck, and they just bought some Kroger premade potato salad, and it's not good. And then someone, like, poured their heart and soul into making this pot roast and bringing all the additives and so anyway, Larry always seems to know exactly what he thinks and feels about something when you ask him. And me, my personality, I have the blessing and the curse to see both sides, and it takes me like, a week to figure out how I really feel about something. So I admire that, among other things, about Larry, but that was one of the earliest things and I still admire and I'm just like, man, I wish I could get a little bit more of that. And then Abbye, I feel like Abbye, she said that I'm an includer, but I think Abbye is able to maybe she's not an includer. Like, she doesn't necessarily want to go on trips and hang out with everyone where I'm like, oh, hey, we're going to do this thing. And I would see ten people along my day and be like, hey, we're going to do this thing. Why don't you come along? It'll be great. Instead of three of us, there's like 15 of us. That's not necessarily Abbye or Larry, but Abbye has a way of just really loving people where they're at, who they are, their differences. And whereas I'm an includer, I might just really include a lot of people, but it's definitely just the people that I think I could be friends with. And Abbye has a way of loving everyone where they're at.

Larry Ray: You said maybe not most admire. I also made my own edit to say admire and appreciate all together. Together, yeah.

Mary: I like that.

Larry Ray: So I'll first start with something I really admire and appreciate about Abbye is and I think we often tend to admire and appreciate things that qualities that we don't possess ourselves. And so for me, what I admire and appreciate and Abbye is really her own entrepreneurial spirit and commitment.

Mary: I mean.

Larry Ray: Thinking specifically in her music business. Not only the idea of I want to be able to play music and I want to be able to share with people. But the idea like. I just want to learn what are the best ways to build a fan base and what is the best way to communicate with people and what's the best ways to market myself and how do I get this kind of gig when I really don't. Like. Want this other kind of gig. And so it's like just gone on this whole sort of self taught learning process that has been shot down and defeated and persevered through it all, which it's like, yeah, I have no music ability, but I would have given up in the first day, I'm sure. So, yeah, I just can't get around that being something that I really admire and appreciate. And it's also selfishly, really fun to collaborate on because I get asked my advice even though I've never actually done anything of the lot that's Abbye Jeff. It's kind of funny because Abbye brought something similar, but Jeff just, like, brings his all when it comes to spending time with other people. And this plays out in like, what he wears, what he says, the music he plays, the questions he asks people. And I just get to benefit from a lot of this when I want to. Sometimes I don't want to. But we provided so much richness to our friendship and the things that we do. And so the story that I think best encapsulates this is a time that Jeff and I went on a trip together. And we were visiting a few distilleries on the Kentucky Bourbon Trail. And we had visited a distillery one day, and Jeff ran into a guy that he knew. My worst nightmare jeff's best day.

Jeff: What is his name?

Larry Ray: His name is also Jeff. Can't believe I remember that. Even this guy is actually a dad of a friend of Jeff. Jeff and Jeff get talking, and other Jeff is there with an online bourbon forum, which, I mean, who even knew that existed, much less that they met up together. And so this online bourbon forum, they do an annual gathering, and clearly other Jeff is like, super proud that he's a part of it, whatever, and they have like a little get together every night after they've toured different distilleries. And so other Jeff invites us to come to their get together that evening. And it's like a few towns over. I mean, it's not super close to where we're staying. Of course Jeff asked me, do you want to. Go. Or maybe he even asked. I don't know. On a scale of one to ten, how much do you want to go? And I might have said, like, three just to be nice, but Jess was definitely a ten.

Jeff: You were definitely a zero.

Larry Ray: Definitely a zero.

Jeff: Maybe a negative two.

Larry Ray: So Jeff said, well, why don't we choose a restaurant that's near this get together? So we'll just go eat, and then we'll see how we feel at the end of dinner, and then we can decide then. Okay, so we're, like, go to dinner at the end of dinner. Nothing's changed. Jeff still a ten. I'm still a fake three. But for whatever reason, I mean, we're right here. We can just stop by. If it's not fun, we can leave. Okay, so we show up to this bourbon forums. We'll get together. It is in this, like, middle of nowhere Kentucky town in this motel. That's right, I said motel. Like, doors on the outside, just as low class as you might imagine when I say the term motel. And it's in this crappy gazebo in the back parking lot, and I don't know, there's maybe, like, 50 people. And the rule is that you show up to the get together and you bring a bottle of bourbon to share. Well, people take this, and clearly some people brought way more than a bottle, because there are literally hundreds of bottles of bourbon on this table in this graphic gazebo and other jeff is elated that we have decided to come. He can't wait to introduce us to the other people in the online bourbon forum. They all want us to, like, try their bourbons. Keep in mind, most people there are, like, our parents age, and so we stay for hours and just let these people entertain the hell out of us with their bourbon stories and pictures of their liquor cabinets at home. And we sampled a lot of bourbon. It is probably one of the fun, honest nights I've had, and I would have never gone. It's just, like, the perfect picture, this random thing happening. Jeff just, like, having to try so hard to get me to go, and then it's a blast. Yeah, I kind of can't believe that we haven't been back. I was like, we need to plan our trip back to the border patrol. Every year, the same weekend the online bourbon forum is going so that we can get invited to their gathering again. So, yeah, that's one of my favorite Jeff moments and something that I admire and appreciate about him, just, like, all wrapped up into one super fun night. But then I also feel like because of equilateral triangle with the line in the middle of the bed collectively, or, like, thinking of Abbye and Jeff together. And Abbye mentioned this earlier, but I think you just can't let the podcast go by without saying I really just admire and appreciate that they accept me for me, and they, like, just have let me into their lives and let us share life together. One of your other guests said something, and I don't remember the episode but said something like, you think you do, but you don't have to have a reason to love somebody. Or at this point, that's really true for us. We could or could not have things in common now. It was 1718 years ago that Abbye and I spent a summer at a camp together. No, at this point, we've just decided to be friends and decided to be committed to each other. That's why our friendship works. It's really rich, and I wouldn't trade it.

Abbye: Larry, thanks for sharing that. I didn't want to interject and cut you off, but I want to echo something or continue on that. We also imagine that commitment only matters in marriages, lifetime partnerships. And I've learned both from friendships that have fallen away and from this friendship exactly what you're saying, that we choose who we continue to stay committed to. And I'm not saying that every friendship should go on forever and for a lifetime, but we still make those choices. And we don't just make them in romantic relationships. We make them in friendships. Or at least I believe that we are better if we make them in friendships and we choose to stay committed to people. So I think you're right, Larry Ray, that we are also and have throughout our friendship chosen to continue to be committed to each other. We have chosen to make trips together a priority. We chose during the shutdown year to see each other six or seven times and drive halfway and see each other and invest that time in our friendship. We have made that choice, and I hope we continue to make that choice.

Mary: I love that a lot. And I also want to say, Abbye, your song better. Oh, my gosh. I just completely lost the name of it.

Abbye: Better With Time 

Mary: Oh, my gosh. Thank you. Immediately was, like, better together. And I was like, that was a covid Like mantra. That was not what it was. Better with time. Sorry. I absolutely love that you chose to write a song about friendship because I think as I've been listening to your song, I've been reflecting on how there aren't tons and tons and tons of songs out there about friendship. Like, there's a lot of songs about romantic relationships, whether it be the beautiful, wonderful aspects, like breakup songs. There's not a lot of just, like, songs that are dedicated to friendship and how important and beautiful friendship is and how much it hurts when friendship shifts and changes. I'm so thankful to you for seeing the importance of writing about something that obviously I'm very passionate about. I think a lot of us are really passionate about our friends, and so I really enjoyed that about your song, in addition to just, like, thinking it sounds beautiful and loving to listen to it. I appreciate the sentiment behind you finding friendship important enough to write about, and I think that's really beautiful. So thank you for that. I also want to give you an opportunity to let people know where they can find your music and where they can find your song because I want people to hear it. And I'll definitely link your spotify and stuff in my show description, but if you have any other avenues that you want people to know about how they can reach out and kind of hear your music, please let us know here. And then also, I'll just tag all that stuff in the show notes as well.

Abbye: Yeah, thank you so much for that and thanks for sharing. I'm glad that the song means something to folks. My website is just Abbyewestpatescom.

Mary: Okay.

Abbye: All first and last name, very easy to spell. Abbye spelled a million ways, but A-B-B-Y-E west pates. Pates. Yeah. And then it's all the different places you can find it streaming.

Mary: Okay. Perfect.

Abbye: Everywhere perfect.

Mary: Yeah. Please listen to it because it's beautiful and I love Abbye's voice and her music, and I love that she's writing about really important and beautiful things. So thank you for sharing your gift with the world. I appreciate it. Thank you all so much for being on the show. I've really loved getting to hear about your friendship. It's been a huge like, I've been looking forward to doing this episode ever since Abbye first reached out, so I'm very excited that we got to record together this evening. And thank you so much for sharing your time. I really appreciate it.

Abbye: Thanks for having us, Mary. It was so fun.

Jeff: Real quick, before you do this, I don't know if you want this on the podcast. You don't have to use it, but I will tell you that I have declined all other podcasts.

Mary: I do want this on the podcast. This is important. Yes.

Jeff: Well, I've only been asked to do one other podcast.

Mary: But I'm still super honored that you would say yes to this pod.

Jeff: Yeah, I mean, it doesn't even matter what the other one was, but I was like, I want to do this one.

Mary: Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm glad we didn't stop the recording because that's important to have on air. I had so much fun recording with Abbye Jeff and Larry Ray. I really enjoyed getting to hear their stories, hear how much hospitality and travel means to their friendship and also how intentional they are with one another and with the way that they interact with friendship in general. I hope that you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. Abbye's song, Better With Time, is available wherever you stream music, and as she said, her website is Abbyewestpat.com, I have linked all of that information for you in the description of the show, so please make sure that you check out her song and her music and her website. What's? A podcast between friends? Drops new episodes every Friday. We are always looking for people to interview, so if you are interested in being interviewed on the show, if you know someone who should be interviewed on the show, or if you just want to drop us some encouragement or feedback, please check us out on social media. You can find us on Instagram at what's a podcast between Friends? And you can also find us through email at whatsappodcastbetween friends@gmail.com. You can find episodes wherever you find your podcast, so please make sure that you check out our previous episodes. We have a lot of really, really great interviews that we've done in the past, so make sure that you check those out and be looking forward to new episodes dropping in the future. I hope you enjoy the rest of your week. Bye friends.